Rising cost of food rant

[PTRMAN]

I've been reading a lot lately about how food costs are rising rapidly, especially in countries like Afghanistan, Haiti and Indonesia but also here in the States (Canada too? A lot of pundits are saying its due to our biofuel mandate - the US government now pays a subsidy for the production of corn (maybe other products too?) for ethanol.

Yet ethanol production reportedly requires a ton of energy to produce, produces nasty byproducts, and doesn't do all that much for the efficiency of internal combustion engines. Does anyone out there have answers to these questions?

Who in the world thought they could simply shift the utilization of food products to ethanol without there being any impact on the cost/availabilty of food? If the stuff was just coming off the conveyor belt and piling up as useless, fine, put it to some good use. But did absolutely none of our supposedly smart elected officials ever stop to think - gee, I wonder if paying a premium to farmers so they grow more corn to make into fuel will impact the use of corn as food? -

It simply boggles the mind - was this pushed through Congress by some wacko green group?

Is ethanol really that much better than gasoline?

[gvblake22]

I don't think Ethanol is going to be the answer to gas, but I also don't think that Ethanol production is leading to higher food prices. It might contribute to it a bit, it just doesn't seem like Ethanol production is high enough to really make that much of a difference. Rather, I suspect that the rising gas prices is causing shipping costs to increase A LOT and food companies have to raise their prices to compensate. I can see that being a much bigger contributor to higher food prices than the production of Ethanol.

[PTRMAN]

This is the article that set me off today. I've seen a lot of other headlines about it but I finally had to comment.

Food Crisis Starts Eclipsing Climate Change Worries | The New York Sun

Why is our government supporting the use of biofuels? Isn't it better left to the private sector to come up with solutions to polution? And before all those "big oil" haters get started just remember that big oil doesn't control everyone; even if they are holding back progress to line their pockets there are a lot of other people with money and good ideas who owe nothing to "big oil" and thus are likely to succeed in the end.

[gvblake22]

Originally Posted by PTRMAN

"One factor being blamed for the price hikes is the use of government subsidies to promote the use of corn for ethanol production. An estimated 30% of America’s corn crop now goes to fuel, not food."

Can't vouch for the percentage, but if we used to export that 30% and now don't I could see where some countries that used to import from us would be in trouble.

I can definitely see how that might affect other parts of the world that import corn from us, but 30% just seems too high. I feel like most of our corn and grain production goes to feed cattle anyway!

[Smashing]

The entire environment movement causes damage to the environment.

Recycling is the worst thing of all. It is an industrial process. People are just so f*%$ing stupid to figure that out.

WHEN YOU RECYCLE YOU DAMAGE THE ENVIRONMENT.

For example, instead of one garbage truck coming around to collect trash you now have 3-4 coming around to pick up your trash. Good game "smart people". I hate recycling idiots. Oh and global warming is bull$h!t too.

[screwballl]

Originally Posted by gvblake22

most of our corn and grain production goes to feed cattle anyway!

it does... about 40% of all grains and corn based food is used for livestock.
The real problem is that the farmers are getting an increased paycheck but only for the increased production +1 or 2%, not some sort of big government paycheck for growing corn that will be used for Ethanol. Those tax breaks and government checks go to the nasty polluting refineries that switch from other production to ethanol production. This means less gasoline or heating fuel which in turn increases prices at the pump.

Being from South Dakota, I have learned quite a bit on this through the years since they are an agriculture state and use pretty decent amounts of Ethanol and have for at least 15 years.
When it comes down to it, it takes more power from power plants thus more pollution from power plants... more pollution from the refining process, and more pollution to get this stuff to market, somewhere around 20% more pollution when compared to gasoline refining... all this for a 5-10% reduction in emissions from our car tailpipes. The refineries +20% is equivalent to 2,000% increase in pollution from our cars.
In the end it is causing much more pollution than it would simply not making/using it. It is making a few dollars more for farmers, is making lots of money for refineries and their CEOs, it is making money for increased transport vehicles to get it to market, and it gives these politicians a feel good "we are making a difference in the environment because we are reducing emissions from cars"... When in reality they are causing MUCH more pollution AND giving auto manufacturers even more money on automotive parts...
Heres why: in cold and wet states, an increased ethanol usage means faster internal rust and electrolysis that gasoline usually protects against. The fuel injectors unless specifically manufactured for this purpose (ceramic instead of aluminum or steel) die within 40-80,000 miles rather than 200,000 miles.... This is similar to electrolysis caused when you put aluminum+stainless steel into saltwater. It eats away at the piston rings unless those are also a modified causing more oil to spew through causing more to burn in the tail pipes clogging the catalytic converter and spewing more smoke out the tailpipe...
All sorts of nasty stuff can happen if a vehicle is not set to use ethanol.


I have personally had problems with multiple vehicles: 89 Olds Cutlass, 95 and 01 Nissan Pathfinder and 01 Frontier, anything with a carburetor....

(my numbers may not be entirely accurate but it is mosr of the overall pisture)

[PTRMAN]

Yet another reason for government to stay out of this. They go in with "the best laid plans of mice and men" and come out with, well, s**t.

[qazwsx]

Originally Posted by Smashing

WHEN YOU RECYCLE YOU DAMAGE THE ENVIRONMENT.

Partly true, but the amount of CO2 given off through recycling is alot less than when you make plastics or extract metals from ores.

Also you have to remember that plastics are made from crude oil just like fuel. It takes more energy to make plastics than to melt them down and into new products.

Aluminum is a really bad extraction process. When you turn aluminum ore, bauxite into aluminum, you release oxygen. This oxygen has a high risk of exploading so has to be passed over carbon (which it bonds with to form CO2)

[polobunny]

Originally Posted by Smashing

The entire environment movement causes damage to the environment.

Recycling is the worst thing of all. It is an industrial process. People are just so f*% stupid to figure that out.

WHEN YOU RECYCLE YOU DAMAGE THE ENVIRONMENT.

For example, instead of one garbage truck coming around to collect trash you now have 3-4 coming around to pick up your trash. Good game "smart people". I hate recycling idiots. Oh and global warming is bull!t too.

This is the reason why you're not taking important decisions.

My 2 cents.

[MantaBase]

Originally Posted by PTRMAN

Yet ethanol production reportedly requires a ton of energy to produce, produces nasty was this pushed through Congress by some wacko green group?

Wacko green groups don't have the power to do this.

There is a large agro business lobby that pushed for it (they are mostly corn growers). In the US (and North America), corn is in nearly everything. Pick up just about any product in the store and you will see corn syrup or some corn product in it. Because the corn industry pushed through stuff for corn derived biofuels, demand has risen and the price has doubled. As a result, feed for beef and chickens has doubled as has corn sweetener. In southern Mexico, the corn shortage nearly caused a revolt (they eat a lot of corn). The price of tequila has risen as well - agave farmers are switching to corn.

Biofuels like biodiesil are made with by-products. Ethanol is not. Don't blame the wacko greenies for this one - blame folks who were looking to get more of your green and a very short sighted congress.

Just IMO.

Anyways - this thread is a tad too political - so that's about all I have to say on that subject.