Iraq War

[Jokerswild]

As much as I hate war and I lean to the left in case no ones noticed, I find myself going against the idea of pulling out of Iraq simple because We are at the point now where We need to assert Our presence there in the face of growing terrorism in the area. I believe that We need to make a stand and I don't think the country has the stomach for it and the Politicians are jumping on the Bush was wrong bandwagon for the wrong reason such as protecting their own political lives. I was against the war to start with but feel that since We started it We need to finish it. Ever since the Korean war We have backed down whenever the going gets tough and that sent the wrong message to the rest of the world. Unfortunately the Military is caught in the middle of all this without the resources or the power to finish the job. Just my rant on things.

[One4yu2c]

Originally Posted by Jokerswild

We need to assert Our presence there

So let's build a Wal-Mart in the middle of Baghdad and call it day!

[Jokerswild]

Originally Posted by One4yu2c

So let's build a Wal-Mart in the middle of Baghdad and call it day!

Wal-mart doesn't sell AK-47's so there wouldn't be any need of it.

[One4yu2c]

If anyone could sell them for pennies on the dollar, Wal-Mart could. I'm envisioning something like this for our longterm occupation:

See how happy it looks?

[Jokerswild]

What no Bk!!!!! Prolific is gonna be pissed.

[carpenator]

I agree with you Joker. We are currently in a no win situation. As much as I would love to see our soldiers, sailors, airmen back. It is going to create ton of issues if we just run. What we need is a plan that can work. Then you have to get everyone including the Iraq's to buy into it and still not think that we are setting up another occupation, something we as American's have not experienced since we freed ourselves from the English. Then you have to sell people on the idea that we may be there for another 10 years and a lot of people are not going to be happy with it. I am just not sure if that can be done under the current circumstances. I know I am not smart enough to see it, but I wonder if anyone is in the current leadership.

The problem is that too many people were looking at the wrong history when they thought this up. I kept hearing about the Marshall plan and how it could work. We bombed Germany and Japan into nearly the Stone Age. We had wagged total war where we showed only limited concern for civilian deaths and destruction Then once they submitted we rebuilt them so we would not have a repeat of what happened due to the accords of WWI since desperation breeds hostility.

How about we look at the Ottoman and English experience in the area. Barge in, and decide how things are going to be and you are in for years of misery and turmoil. We are the USA so we can just forget all that four thousands years of culture. We are going to show you the Texas way of doing things. There are just too many arrogant people who have the Roman idea that we need to spread our ideals to others if they like it or not and on our timetable. That is what we did to the Native Tribes of America.

Imagine if the French landed 100,000 troops along the Mexican border without asking us and said it was to fix are immigration issue? Then they set up support bases in the midwest and started talking about how this used to be their land before Napoleon sold it. I know that is way off, but it is the closest I can come up with for a occupation scenario at the moment. Now factor in how many times the Iraq/Babylonian people have been occupied over their history and how bad it has been for them. I also find it interesting that the United States is trying to set up a new and improved Babylon, a very complicated theological issue.

Now don't get me wrong. I think the United States is one of the best countries in the world. I won't say best, as I consider that just egotistical, but I am more then willing to die to protect it. I served in the Navy and the National Guard, though I have only experienced a tenth of what the current veterans are. I think people who burn the flag should, if they wrap it around themselves first. I just think it has been 14 long years with a Military Leader that doesn't know what a military is for or the true value of our service members and the true cost of war.

[[Dr. V]]

It's an extremely complicated situation - this war.

America...actually I can't say just America, because there has been Canadians and others involved on that side as well. So war has been going on against Iraq for an unworldly amount of time, and where has it gone?

People are dying, nothing is happening. Hmm...no where? Well, that's wrong - it's been going backwards.

Now, it's really difficult to pin the fault of this one someone (*cough Bush*), but it isn't fair to say that Iraq didn't have a part in it either. However, where are these damn weapons of mass destructions? I haven't seen any.

War is amazing for a country's economy - that's the main reason this war is going on. It's not benefiting anyone except the governments. It's only hurting the people and innocent soldiers who think they're fighting for something so amazing, when they're really only fighting for the politicians. It's extremely true when said "People don't start wars, politicians start wars." I strongly and very whole-heartedly agree with this saying. Innocent people...or puppets...shouldn't have to fight wars for the rich bastards sitting at home making money who started them. These stupid profiteers give less than a shit about anyone.

Also, there is some controversy about Canadians in the war, and many people are talking about w/e...who cares? At the end of the day does it matter? Whoever is in the war is there for "their country"...it's the government we should be getting mad at. The government is actually supporting the war by having their troops be in it. The people shouldn't be arguing against each other, they should be arguing against the stupid governments.

[Fasttazz]

Originally Posted by ST!X

It's an extremely complicated situation - this war.

These stupid profiteers give less than a shit about anyone.

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( bankers,Lawyers,corparate CEO's)HMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!

Originally Posted by ST!X

The people shouldn't be arguing against each other, they should be arguing against the stupid governments.

Perfect ST!X!!!....just perfect!!!
You too Carpenator!!

[[Dr. V]]

Oh no carpenator - don't you start with the Ottoman...there is a million posts I can post about that. The 1915 Armenian Genocide is what I'm referring to, by the way. Interested? Let me know...I'll eventually get a thread going about it. More for awareness than anything. Basically, in 1915, Turkey invaded Armenia in hopes of wiping all Armenians off the planet, and seizing all their land. They killed 1.5 million Armenians, at which time there were no more than about that in Armenia. My real last name is "Varjabedian", but I had relatives in the genocide, names had to be changed. Having "-ian" at the end of your name means you're Armenian - it was all changed after the genocide.

The only reason why it's such a HUGE deal for my people is simple...Turkey hasn't admitted that it ever happened.

I'll leave the rest for the soon-to-come thread.

And thanks Fasttazz!

[carpenator]

ST!X, that is another good point about the Turks/Ottoman Empire. How many in America really know about the issues of the region from the last 100 years. I only know what you are talking about because I happened to read a discussion about how some in Turkey were trying to bring it up to be discussed as Turkish history and they were being squashed. I am sorry for your families loss. There are a lot of great tragedies in history that either get minimized or even said that it was totally made up. It doesn't make them any less wrong. The problem is that people don't look at the history and understand how it effects the present.

I was just trying to point out that you can't just figure that you have a plan and not look at the people and the history of the region. What works for one culture and certain circumstance does not work for another. I know there are American politicians that are just frustrated with the Iraq government and how slow they are moving. Guess what, they still have some nomadic tendencies in the way they behave because of the culture they are part of. It would be like arguing about not getting good service during siesta in Spain.

I consider myself moderately educated at best and so I can't understand these professionals that act like they are making a movie and are complaining that the locals are not performing as good extras. I admit I don't have any genus answers, but I bet it wouldn't be hard for me to at least get the same results the experts have achieved so far.

God Bless those that fight for their country and good ideals and yet are hampered by the Politicians.