Healthcare in the U.S.

[Gig-O-Ram]

...is in a serious state of degeneration.

We watched Micheal Moore's film "Sicko" last night, his thing about the sad state of affairs of HMOs. Now before you guys start on about whether it's a liberal, left wing, slanted MM piece of crap...give it a look if you haven't already. I will grant that bits here and there could stand some scrutiny about the slant angle, just because of MM's tendency to throw in his own sarcasm and wit, but it makes a lot of solid points.

This website doesn't have enough bandwidth for me to state everything I feel after watching it. Whether you are Republican or Democrat, there is no denying the state of medical care in the U.S. We were very affected by it, and it made us think about things.

[Tech Geek Deluxe]

I haven't watched the movie nor likely will, as I find Micheal Moore to be a poorly researched left wing "Media-Nazi" Tard. However I suspect it might be one of his more truthful representations showing that US health-care is horrible.

I suspect that in 30-50 years the money-grubbing health-care we have now will be referred to as Barbaric and downright deadly.

[Zambini]

If you or anyone else could narrate and do that movie, I'd watch it most def.

But to be perfectly honest, I can't stand him. I want to poke ice-picks in my ear whenever I hear his voice.

[Gig-O-Ram]

Originally Posted by Tech Geek Deluxe

I haven't watched the movie nor likely will, as I find Micheal Moore to be a poorly researched left wing "Media-Nazi" Tard. However I suspect it might be one of his more truthful representations showing that US health-care is horrible.

I suspect that 30-50 years the money-grubbing health-care we have now will be referred to Barbaric and downright deadly.

I don't know how many movies he's made - I've only seen this one and Farenheit 911. I don't know if I'd call him poorly researched, but this film points out that we are as much as already at barbaric and deadly. Like I said, whether Rep or Dem, everyone needs healthcare...and unless you have money, you're not getting it here. According to the film, people with life threatening conditions - including children - are allowed to die because they can't pay their bill.

And note that I am not trying to condsider the merits of MM himself...I could care less about him...I'm talking about the points he's making.

[Boy'nBlack]

If it's slanted, and just flat out lies about the state of health care in the US, then how could it be beneficial or good on any level? Even then, socialism is no cure....but that's what they want and obviously we're eating it up? No way man...I like being a capitalistic pig I guess.

Cuba being used as an example stinks because they don't offer one bit of it to non-Cubans. We however do, and probably far too much. We could have on doctor per 168 citizens as well, if we'd just offer it to citizens...ya know?

I just don't buy that we have bad health care. I've always had it...always. There's no availability concerns, and I can't buy that 18K die from not having insurance. Why? for the Citizen thing again...I'm sure we save MANY more than that who DON'T have health insurance in the first place. So who doesn't have health care that needs it? Probably the un-employed, but I know single mothers and kids get it from the state or through court orders of the father.

Just baffles me what the movie points out, yet it's not able to be viewed first hand. I'm sure some tweaking could, and should be done, but the answer in the movie is Socialism versus refinement. That's what grinds my gears about it. I don't want a commie state and like the idea of paying up for better health care. Blue cross costs me about $14 a week, so you have to be...less than poor not to have it. I pay up from there for my advanced coverages. There's also HMO's and Health Savings plans that I'd look into if I were married and have a family.

And of all the enlisted and veterans in here, ya gotta respect the VA covering our butts at times. That is the prime example of what we'll get with social health care, and it's not that good. I like it for the tubs of 500mg Motrin and not much else.

[plmbob]

the thing about Michael Moore and his ilk is that they rufuse to see the up side of our system and the down side of all the social medicine in their favorite countries of example (Cuba, Canada, Iceland and such) In those social systems of health care whether you have money or not far more people die each year due to lack of care because of the wait and red tape than die in our country due to not getting care. In our system yes more money means better care and sometimes care can get expensive, but when the chips are down NOBODY can be denied emergency care even if they have no business being in this country. Even the cost of insurance isn't that bad it's just that American poor folks don't have any money left over after they buy their essentials (cable TV, fast food, and any other number of things most of the rest of the world would consider a luxury)

[Hitman]

Health care is expensive no matter how you pay for it, upfront, insurance, work insurance, or taxes. I am all about every man for himself. Do I give a damn if the guy down the street is dieing from cancer? No I don't. I sure as hell shouldn't have to pay for it. Can't afford insurance? Can't afford to pay for health care? Life sucks. Call Oprah.

[Gig-O-Ram]

I did not say it was 100% slanted. I just said that a few of his comments could be construed as slanted, if you only want to take them at face value.

No system is perfect. I am not saying all this stuff about the U.S. medical system just based on what was given in that movie. We have first hand from people who live in other countries what things are like in their medical systems. My wife is well aquainted with people who live in Europe, Canada and the U.K., and has heard from them what they get - and all BEFORE we watched that movie. It was hard to believe what they said, because we are so accustomed to our system. But the movie made the same exact points of things we had already heard from people who live in those countries.

[plmbob]

Originally Posted by Gig-O-Ram

I did not say it was 100% slanted. I just said that a few of his comments could be construed as slanted, if you only want to take them at face value.

No system is perfect. I am not saying all this stuff about the U.S. medical system just based on what was given in that movie. We have first hand from people who live in other countries what things are like in their medical systems. My wife is well aquainted with people who live in Europe, Canada and the U.K., and has heard from them what they get - and all BEFORE we watched that movie. It was hard to believe what they said, because we are so accustomed to our system. But the movie made the same exact points of things we had already heard from people who live in those countries.

I guess I just don't understand what you mean when you say there are so many "things" that they get that we don't. I also know a number of people from Europe and if you really pin them down, they don't fully understand the cost associated with their "free/cheap" health care. If you knew the amount of money they never get to see because of the government provided services it would appall you. The only people I know that come here from elsewhere that are even remotely inclined to say things were as good or better where they came from overall is England and it was more of a hometown pride thing than anything else. I am just an average guy who's income wouldn't impress anyone and I have never had trouble with health care cost or needed services being obtainable. Those who can't find the means to afford it are often the ones who just need to get their butts off the couch and get a job and prioritize their budget.

[Gig-O-Ram]

Originally Posted by plmbob

I guess I just don't understand what you mean when you say there are so many "things" that they get that we don't. I also know a number of people from Europe and if you really pin them down, they don't fully understand the cost associated with their "free/cheap" health care. If you knew the amount of money they never get to see because of the government provided services it would appall you. The only people I know that come here from elsewhere that are even remotely inclined to say things were as good or better where they came from overall is England and it was more of a hometown pride thing than anything else. I am just an average guy who's income wouldn't impress anyone and I have never had trouble with health care cost or needed services being obtainable. Those who can't find the means to afford it are often the ones who just need to get their butts off the couch and get a job and prioritize their budget.

Well, as it happens, we are quite aware of the taxes those people pay out for their "free/cheap" medical care. We've always known and understood that.
But for the higher taxes, they are afforded not only the medical care itself, but they get maternity/paternity, day care, minimum of five weeks vacation per year, and the people we know in these countries are generally very happy. The are secure that they will be taken care of even when they get older - they call it "Cradle to Grave Security".

As far as people being able to budget their money for healthcare - I too, make a decent, yet modest income, and my wife recently had to get her own medical insurance at a cost of $218/month. This cost is for a healthy 40 year old female, and includes $25 copays for office visits, and $15-$75 copays for the pharmacy, depending on the drugs. She has a $500 annual deductible, and thereafter, the insurance covers 90% of any other costs. The insurance company (Blue Cross/Blue Shield New Mexico) sent her a slew of paperwork outlining the things that they would not cover, along with the list of fees. So, the question becomes - what the hell is she paying for? I got the same from my job insurance - they were all about have I had coverage in the past, and if so, how long ago and for how long...so they can figure out how much of the year long wait for pre-existing conditions I would get to take off. And also the stuff they won't cover, and I have to find out in advance from a doctor what will be covered, and then let them know. The people in the other countries I mentioned don't worry about any of this crap, and they seem much happier for it.

It's not fair of you to generalize that anyone who doesn't have health coverage is simply unable to budget. The figures I just quoted would simply be unaffordable to many people of lower income levels, especially with gas prices rising the way they are, and food.

The thing that we found so alarming about "Sicko" were all the people who had coverage, only to have their insurance companies do anything not to cover them for services they were paying for - like the guy who severed two fingers in a table-saw accident, who was made to choose which finger to reattach - the $12K one, or the $70K one, as both would have been too costly for his insurance company. It goes on, but you get the point. They profiled a similar case in Canada, (the guy lost ALL fingers on one hand) and the doctors stated that they would never make someone make a choice like that.

When I said the doc was slanted, I didn't mean it was slanted in regards to the information about the health industry. Moore took jabs at Bush and his administration, which were just his opinion. That is what I meant by "slanted".

I'm not here to try to sway you toward a NHS (National Healthcare System), I'm just telling you how I feel about it. Regardless of a person's political affiliations, we are all going to need medical care at some point in our lives. I just question whether we will be able to get it in the USA with the way things are going.

Originally Posted by Hitman

Health care is expensive no matter how you pay for it, upfront, insurance, work insurance, or taxes. I am all about every man for himself. Do I give a damn if the guy down the street is dieing from cancer? No I don't. I sure as hell shouldn't have to pay for it. Can't afford insurance? Can't afford to pay for health care? Life sucks. Call Oprah.

So, let me understand what you mean...If someone can't get or afford medical coverage, then what? They can just die? Nice.

This is the difference between the USA and places like the UK or Canada...they give a damn about each other, and they give a damn about more than money. Would you feel this way if it were you?