Gun thread

[Quakindude]

Originally Posted by Reloadron

From what I read the government needs to quit playing politics when it comes to supplying the troops with reliable weapons.

Ron

The government needs to let a SF MSG I know tell them what rifle to acquire for the Army in general.

If you want to know what's successful on the battlefield, let an Army SF guy or Navy SEAL tell the government what to buy. And not a guy that's been out of the military for a couple of years looking to make some money. I'm talking about the guy who is in Iraq or one of the Stans having to use the damned thing. The 5.56 sucks on the battle field compared to a lot of weapons readily available out there.

[RangerXLT8]

Originally Posted by Quakindude

The government needs to let a SF MSG I know tell them what rifle to acquire for the Army in general.

If you want to know what's successful on the battlefield, let an Army SF guy or Navy SEAL tell the government what to buy. And not a guy that's been out of the military for a couple of years looking to make some money. I'm talking about the guy who is in Iraq or one of the Stans having to use the damned thing. The 5.56 sucks on the battle field compared to a lot of weapons readily available out there.

here here man no one knows like the guys getting shot at and the weapon jamming in the middle of it because some sand got in it.

[oldman_gamer]

I agree and have been there with the M-16A1..a grain or 2 of sand in the gas tube and pfffft.....nothing.
I also carried the M-16 with the M-203 grenade launcher on it....they had a name for it,but I forget what it was.I also humped the M-60 during training and although it was heavy and cumbersome,was a fine weapon.

[Reloadron]

Originally Posted by Tech Geek Deluxe

From what I understand ... new ammo will be coming into play soon and is already being used by special forces.

6.8 Rem SPC

Defense Review - 6.8x43mm SPC Cartridge for Urban Warfare CQB and Short-to-Medium-Range Sniping

I am kinda excited about it ... since it is a great sniping round. Similar to the Winchester .270 in ballistics.

This sort of proves to be an interesting cartridge:

The 6.8mm Remington SPC is an intermediate length rifle cartridge based on the 30 Remington case. Designed to function in M4/M16 type rifles, the 6.8mm Remington SPC was specifically developed to provide increased reliability, incapacitation, and accuracy not only at close quarters combat distance, but ranges out to 500 meters.

Looks like what they have done is basically necked a .30 Remington down to a 6.8 mm (.270 Calibre). The .30 Remington was little more than a 30-30 Winchester but unlike the 30-30 the .30 Remington is a rimless cartridge, making the case practical for a semi-auto rifle design.

The "magic" to the round is the powder they use.

Earlier in this thread I think I made refrence to how many of todays rifle (and some pistol) cartridges spawn from other rounds. The .308 or if you prefer 7.62 Nato (yes, there is a very small difference) was little more than a shortened 30-06. The 30-06 having been around since 1906 is a grandfather. The 30-06 was necked up and down spawning several really great flavors. Likely one of the best being the .270 Winchester.

Then the .308 spawned one hell of a family. The .243 Winchester, the 7-08 Remington and several others. I have to wonder how a .308 would perform necked down to a 6.5 or 6.8 cartridge? I also have to wonder why they just didn't go that route rather than screw with the .30 Remington?

Anyone who has fired a 30-30 or .30 Remington from a lever or bolt rifle on a summer day wearing a T Shirt knows after a few rounds you put the gun down and open a beer.

I'll tell you one shit hot cartridge is the old 6.5 Swede. That was a nice big case with a sweet flat trajectory. Must have sold hundreds of those years ago when the Swede Mausers poured in. Great rifle and cartridge. So great Remington chambered the 700 series for it.

Despite America's long running love affair with .30 Calibre bullets the trajectory just is not quite as good as the 6 to 7 mm diameters. I screwed with twist after twist but could never get out of a .30 what I could out of the smaller diameters.

Ron

[fstroupe]

Stoner also specified that the bolt and chamber should be chrome....something else that didn't happen until after guys died. I personally believe that the ball powder and chrome chamber/bolt specs were intentionally changed to derail the entire project.

Originally Posted by Reloadron

Eugene Stoner Designer Of The M16 / AR15 - Bob Tuley

The "Matty Mattel" or "Mouse Gun" has evolved quite a bit. The early problems we encountered in Vietnam were for a good part the result of the government failing to test the damn thing. The merits were many in that it was light (about 1/2 the weight of an M14) and obviously the ammo was lighter and smaller.

Personally I can't comment on the M4 as I have never fired one. I strongly agree with Dread in that the military leaders like to tell the government what they want to hear. They also love to plug the contractors that many of them later seem to have jobs with as in high paying jobs. Go figure huh?

Ron

[Tech Geek Deluxe]

Reload ... I think the issue is the balance of weight, firepower, trajectory and simple conversion.

The mags that used the .223 will also hold 17 of the new caliber.

.308 is heavy ... a soldier cannot carry as many.

The new round is between the two but has a flatter trajectory and about the same energy on impact as a .308 ... plus has almost the same distance capability.

The beauty is that the lower receivers and mags can be the same for the new caliber ... change the bolt and upper and your ready to inject lead poisoning at battle ranges of 300 yards plus.

Welcome to Model 1 Sales' Online Order Center

Also ... the .308 can be an intimidating round.

I remember when I had some hot loads ... [Sami] ... but hot ... we were up shooting through some steel girder with Armor piercing rounds ... those had a very solid report and a sizeable shockwave ... enough where my buddy crawled a good distance behind me from his spotter position. They can scare you ... the .223 isn't much ... maybe the Brass figured the 6.8 was the best of both worlds.

[screwballl]

I have used my dads 1970s .308 Winchester rifle for deer hunting and that thing is a beast. In a bolt action rifle, you are looking at an easy 500 yards or better. Talk about reducing the amount of cleanup needed when field dressing... powerful hit has dropped some 250+ pound deer on the spot rather than chasing them (South Dakota deer).
Put a similar designed cartridge in a semi auto or automatic weapon and the range may suffer some but the damage is still very much there.

[Reloadron]

Originally Posted by fstroupe

Stoner also specified that the bolt and chamber should be chrome....something else that didn't happen until after guys died. I personally believe that the ball powder and chrome chamber/bolt specs were intentionally changed to derail the entire project.

The bolt & chamber were to be "hard chromed" a process that was more costly. Hard chroming is a plating process which affords the metal a harder surface. This process added another step to the manufacturing process.

The problem comes along when a designer (Stoner) designes something and someone later eliminates steps in the manufacturing process. This works a few ways. The customer likes and wants the product but... the cost needs to be cut. The cost cutting generally involves removing operations from the manufacturing process. Thus a well designed product becomes shit.

Just my take.
Ron

[Reloadron]

Originally Posted by Tech Geek Deluxe

Reload ... I think the issue is the balance of weight, firepower, trajectory and simple conversion.

The mags that used the .223 will also hold 17 of the new caliber.

.308 is heavy ... a soldier cannot carry as many.

The new round is between the two but has a flatter trajectory and about the same energy on impact as a .308 ... plus has almost the same distance capability.

The beauty is that the lower receivers and mags can be the same for the new caliber ... change the bolt and upper and your ready to inject lead poisoning at battle ranges of 300 yards plus.

Welcome to Model 1 Sales' Online Order Center

Also ... the .308 can be an intimidating round.

I remember when I had some hot loads ... [Sami] ... but hot ... we were up shooting through some steel girder with Armor piercing rounds ... those had a very solid report and a sizeable shockwave ... enough where my buddy crawled a good distance behind me from his spotter position. They can scare you ... the .223 isn't much ... maybe the Brass figured the 6.8 was the best of both worlds.

Oh, I agree. I would love to work with the round in a good bolt rifle. Having dragged my share of both .308 and .223 as well as an M14 and M16 I like smaller. That is given a choice in combat. Additionally the .308 though a fine 500 yard round really wasn't needed as based on all the studies (which make sense) most combat kills are well within 200 to 300 yards or less.

I was never a great fan of the .223 though enjoy shooting it. Aside from mouse guns I like a .223 bolt gun I built off an old Remington 722 action.

I would love to mess with this new round in a bolt gun and screw with some loads and bullets. Anyone catch the twist rate?

Ron

[Reloadron]

Originally Posted by screwballl

I have used my dads 1970s .308 Winchester rifle for deer hunting and that thing is a beast. In a bolt action rifle, you are looking at an easy 500 yards or better. Talk about reducing the amount of cleanup needed when field dressing... powerful hit has dropped some 250+ pound deer on the spot rather than chasing them (South Dakota deer).
Put a similar designed cartridge in a semi auto or automatic weapon and the range may suffer some but the damage is still very much there.

I have a Remington 7400 (Semi-Auto) chambered in 30-06 which is also chambered in the .308. Overall a real nice autoloader. Given a choice I still like the bolt action rifles.

The bitch I suffer is I shoot Left Handed. Seeking out left handed bolt guns is not that easy. Matter of fact it sucks. My best builds are right handed. I do have a Ruger 7mm Rem. Mag. I like in a left hand bolt.

Ron